Stirring up the pot in the blog world
One of the blogs I occasionally check out to see what’s going on is internetmonk.com. On May 27th he posted about something he evidently had mentioned before. It really struck a nerve in his followers and he has had over 175 comments posted. Because I think the subject and the interest represents a very real wrestling going on with one particular theme with religious people today, I want to say something about it myself. (who knows, someone might actually post a comment or two)
“It still concerns me. Not whether all things are centered in, related to, dependent on, destined for and exist to glorify God, but whether some expressions of Christianity can become so God-focused that the significance of what is not God- including all things in human experience- are devalued and even distorted to the point of confusion in the minds of God loving/God believing people.” (emphasis added)
The crux of the discussion centers on this sincere concern that Michael has, a concern that finally led him to put it on the net. By the way, he enjoys a pretty large audience and is said to be one of the most recognized bloggers in the “Christian” community. I think if I understand him at all, the main point of his concern is the phrase, “some expressions of Christianity“ that place such an emphasis on God-centerness (as in the Calvinistic resurgence within Southern Baptist churches and others), that ” all things in the human experience” are neglected or even distorted. Because I too recognize the reality of this danger-a danger that for that matter, has always existed in Christianity, I am very interested to know what your own first-reaction is.
First, I will place here one of the responses to give you some idea of just how some were able to dialogue from their own life-situation.
30 May 2009 at 6:09 pm grimtraveller
To Patrick Lynch at post 105 {or thereabouts}
“I’ve been thinking about your response and I have a couple of thoughts in reply. First off, while I understand the analogy with one’s lover {and scripture points to it sometimes}, it has certain limitations. Personally, I don’t think in those terms. I dig being with my wife but there’s never been a time when she was the only thing on my mind. When you’re part of one another’s world and being, for me such a thought just can’t be quantified. And so it is with our Lord. He wants to be our all in all. But what does that mean exactly ? I think good relationships ebb and flow. They bounce from weak to strong to intense to slow to fast to complacent to still to whatever else, you know ? Whatever my struggles, doubts, joys, frustrations, etc, I know he’s always with me. I really mean that.
“There’s this song that’s been kicking around church circles for yonks, called “Draw me close” and it has this chorus of “You’re all I want – You’re all I’ve ever needed”. I love the melody, the way the chords interact with the lyrics and the build up and all that……but I can’t stand the words because for me, it’s simply not true. I’ve been causing a bit of a ruckus over the last 12 or so years when I say things like “I don’t like the words of that song. I find them shallow or not steeped in real life” in relation to many of the big church hits. For the record, I do that with all songs ! Those lurve songs that declare “limitless undying love” or “I would climb mountains and swim across oceans for yooooooouuuuu!!!” are lyrically ridiculous to me, even though I might love the actual song. But going back to “Jesus, you’re all I want”…..for me that’s not true. Paul the apostle gave the impression that was how Christian life was meant to be lived, but then, we don’t really know what he thought of many things because in the letters of his that we do have that are part of the NT, feelings on art, politics, and a whole range of other things weren’t his brief.
“I might want lots of things. I wanted a wife, kids, friends, family, recording equipment, a job, albums, the list is endless. None of that is incompatible with being in Christ because he is number one. None of the things I want or like or have to do are the centre of my existence. I can make loads of decisions myself – that is not incompatible with being led by the Spirit. I can dig many things in the world and equally detest many things in the world. Hating horror movies or porn doesn’t mean that I’m God centered. Not subscribing to the standard Christian norms of daily bible study or one hour prayer or whatever doesn’t make a person a reprobate. It’s been hard, but I’ve learned over the years to cultivate a relationship with the Lord on the move and in the stillness and quietness and in the hubbub of company. I’ll talk with him anytime and anywhere about football, music, war, sex, his church, history, my kids, my wife, buses, the shower, politics, pain, things I understand, things I don’t, telly, friends, attitudes, work, riding a bike, you name it. Nothing is verboten. I’ll talk and try to listen as I drive, walk, watch TV, listen to music, joke with the kids, play the guitar, read, argue, work – you name it. Is that God centered ? Sometimes, we won’t chat extensively or with depth for days and days. That does not mean that he plays second fiddle or that “the world” has or is crowding him out. In fact, I think that when we have to think of life with the Lord in this way, maybe we’re the ones who really haven’t really grasped what it is to be led by him. There is one powerful NT example {among many} that stands out to me and that’s when Paul brought back to life the kid that fell out the window and died. In the record written, there is no mention of God. But that Paul simply went and confidently prayed for the guy says something. He often moved in the life of God within him. But this is the same guy who, when the disciples in Tyre urged him through the Spirit not to go to Jerusalem, he ignored them and went. This indicates to me that being led by the Spirit is what the Lord truly desires for us because I doubt many of us would argue that Paul wasn’t God centered. But he was a bloke like half of us and human like all of us and didn’t get it always right. I also realize that for the rest of our days we’ll be learning, ebbing, flowing, but hopefully closer to and more led by our God. I don’t want “Heaven” to be the place where I tell him I love him and know I mean it. I want Kingsbury in London or wherever I am at the time {regardless of what I’m doing or how I feel} to be that place.”
Excellent related post: Get Human!
June 4, 2009 at 11:59 am
I’ve talked about diverse “Faith traditions” on this blog and about listening to others tell you what living their tradition looks like for them. Well, what I think is going on here is folks living a faith tradition having an honest struggle with how that relates to ALL of LIFE here on planet earth.
Its going on, I think, in all the major Faith traditions as never before. We want to live according to our Faith as it involves total human experience and integrally connects with all that gone on before in the human family. And it does involve engaging in an intense and uncomfortable struggle. Unless of course, you just tag along with what some religious “guru” is telling you to believe. In that case you can sit back and let him do all the struggling.
June 4, 2009 at 9:10 pm
Something about this idea settles with me. I have recognized this almost fanatical approach to God on other forums (SC), where believers seem to be always running after the rainbow, never quite catching the pot of gold. It becomes in a sense religious pornography. No matter how much effort you put into it, it never quite satisfies. You are always left feeling let down, is that all there is, confused etc. When I have read some of the religious dialogues on other Christian forums I usually end up shaking my head. And when the subject ends in a tug-o-war, between who is right and who is more right, well, nobody wins. So, we Mormons just keep out of it. We live our life as full as possible, squeezing in time for church service in between our busy family schedules, fully satisfied all of the time with our belief in God. Some times I feel full to overflowing, like I can’t contain all of it. Other times not so much. I still get down and overwhelmed and discouraged with life, but never with God. I am so completely grateful for the belief that I have. I don’t have to wonder if I’m in danger of being too God focused. To me, God is like a corrective lens. I can see everything more clearly, unaware almost that it is God. I don’t feel like I have to chase God in order to find Him. Using the lens analogy, if a person is too God-focused, what distortions would that do to the lens through which you view life? When everything is in order, the lens is correct. When you see clearly, you have healed. When you have healed it’s hard to imagine life any other way. Although this is hard to describe, that is how I feel about God. He is my valuable pair of glasses. With Him dwelling in me I move through life with ease.
June 5, 2009 at 8:56 am
Thanks Connie. I really liked the “religious pornography” tag. Unfortunately, it may be appropriate. I wonder if some of this is not going on as I said in every one of us, and in every Faith tradition, including the LDS one. It only becomes intense when those who are living our tradition are in the battle of “bringing all things (including thoughts) into captivity to the obedience of Christ” (I Cor 10). Otherwise, most Christians rarely feel the tension because they have all but divided their lives into two separate categories: the “sacred” and the “secular”.
June 6, 2009 at 1:46 am
I have experienced religious pornography, but I don’t fault the (LDS) church. The reason I experienced it was because I was trying to live my life on both sides of the fence at once, or at least walk the line. I see life in pictures, and the picture I saw was one of myself running fast, but my feet were not touching down, and so I was going nowhere. That means the same as you describe in your comment, “bringing all things into captivity to the obedience of Christ”, until there is no separation between the sacred and the secular. That really is a point that most Christians don’t get. But that’s ok. Church is for the broken, and is for healing. The LDS church is for the same, so you would expect to find religious pornography going on in some of the people, but not in the church itself.
June 6, 2009 at 6:10 am
My personal bent is toward a quiet display of my faith. I am uncomfortable with those for whom evangelism must be almost like a shout and a buzz of activity. However, I realize and appreciate that everyone will express his/her faith differently — I am an ear; someone else is a mouth; etc. in the family of God (to use a NT analogy), so I do not expect nor believe everyone should be as I am. I believe God has placed knowledge of himself in every human heart and if we follow the greatest commandments to love God and love others, then we awaken that knowledge in others and in ourselves. (The little children’s song: love is nothing ’til you give it away…) CWTP mom draws a great point about the imaginary line between sacred and secular — it is all God’s; we need not be concerned about these labels if our lives are bathed in prayer and our eyes are open to the miracle of God in every thing and every person. It is then that we can love as he loves, realizing that our Father has all things in His hand.
June 6, 2009 at 10:42 am
Thankyou Denise. Do you think that everyone has to work hard to get to the point which you describe? I know it took me a long time to connect the dots between principle and practice. We know better than we do. But when we can do what we know, no matter at what level we are at, we begin to blend the sacred with the secular, and the fruit of such blending is as you describe – love as he loves, move through life simply, doing what he would do for others. The more truth we discover, the more simple life becomes. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,525254,00.html
When I read this from FOX the same idea of simplicity struck me. Cool.